So infuriating. I'm a former damage control assistant on a US submarine.
The fire response read like a clownshow, and this article doesn't even highlight the worst of it. There was a Sailor who saw the smoke and walked by it, thinking nothing of it!
Another officer thought the smoke might have been coming from the diesel generator. Why tf would the diesel generator be running???
It's hard for me to think of the software equivalent of these fundamental errors. Maybe something like finding a spike in network traffic and assuming it's load testing on prod, when you're actually getting pwned?
I had a buddy report and then help prevent a major electrical fire in the electrical mains coming from the submarine tender. They drug tested him after his heroic performance, found traces of THC and kicked him out of the Navy. Maybe the sailor saw the smoke and decided he didn't want to get drug tested.
After reading ~50 pages into the USN's own 400+ page Command Investigation report (dated 12 Jul 2020 and 20 Oct 2021, link further down)...the sailor and officer that you mention were no more than a couple little sesame seeds on the top bun of a triple-decker shit-show burger, with ALL the trimmings.
(Based on a quick search of that report for "DCA"...let me politely suggest that you do NOT read the report. Ever.)
So as time progressed from WWII we lost best practices, maritime safety knowledge and Military discipline. We can't win another war if a worthy enemy challenged us. We can't build another Saturn V or Apollo module. In other words we retrogressed and became WOKE
Demanding representation is the opposite of insistence on being treated with dignity, and respect. It pushes diversity over competence. Giving everyone a fair chance, instead of demanding an equal outcome, is the most respectful way to treat people.
You can't expect respect by fiat, it must be earned.
> What does wokeness have to do with military preparedness?
This are 100's of military memes everywhere on this so what's your real question?
It's a 100% logical thought process, people are learning to kill other human beings, how is that compatible with Wokeness? The Woke can't even code, they can only bikeshed other peoples time away.
Russian soldier leaks on social media are them killing civilians. The USA 'leaks' on social media are soldiers complaining they have to remove their nail polish. These meme's are common.
It also follows the corollary, that unlike the Cold War where countries tried to outdo each other, now they try and put the other one down. Play down Chinese space tech rather than improving our own.
That could be the sailor, but I would bet on the organization and leadership: In many organizations, bearing the bad news just creates enormous work and trouble for yourself, for your teammates, and rarely accomplishes anything.
Rationally, it's absurd to ignore a fire. But I've seen organizations and situations where I would expect it.
Also a former submarine DCA: a sailor failing to call away smoke speaks to an egregious cultural problem in how the crew treats damage control (unless this was an absolutely brand-spanking-new nonqual).
I'd say training more than culture. The response to smoke onboard a ship should be automatic, not requiring any contemplation (even if it's just 'trigger alarm').
One story I’ve heard told about the us navy (don’t have a link sadly) is that their current position is in some ways similar to the British navy in a time of dominance and peace (late eighteenth century maybe?) The story talks about a case where an elaborate system of instructions via raised flags directed two ships into crashing into each other somewhat catastrophically and the diagnosis from today is that the navy had fallen out of shape due to not having had to fight large naval battles—a situation that requires actual success rather than successful training exercises—and that their officers lacked the initiative to properly command their ships (e.g. avoiding crashing into each other). The story was particularly relevant with the US navy having recently had an avoidable collision at the time I saw it.
There have basically been no naval conflicts between fairly matched forces since WWII and the story goes that no one knows how to run a navy anymore. I say running a navy in such a conflict is mostly irrelevant because the weapons which may destroy ships (particularly large ones) are so much more effective now that your fleet would be quickly destroyed.
The unspoken secret here is aircraft carriers existed in the 80s as a component of Kissinger's soft power. In 2021 there isn't a single meaningful country you'd waste the cash to park a carrier on the coast of that couldn't immediately send it to a watery smouldering grave. Even punching bags like Iran are a dicey proposition as the proxy soldiers are too asymmetric to reliably expect a destroyer to engage, and the nation itself is armed to the teeth with the latest Russian missile systems and radar. Hell, that they managed to land a high tech us drone is in itself alone enough to pull teeth out of the navy.
Submarines exist to keep the peace. Their real purpose is that they exist and operate in the dated service of mutually assured destruction. Even here the accidents seem to mount lately though as these wandering souls of the doomsday device have seemingly nothing to do
The us navy is in the midst of an identity crisis fuelled by octogenarian politicians that have pedalled the institution into treading cold-war era water with no real direction.
> there isn't a single meaningful country you'd waste the cash to park a carrier on the coast of that couldn't immediately send it to a watery smouldering grave.
Carriers don't go anywhere alone, and they never stop moving except when in port. They are part of a carrier strike group which includes extensive anti-missile capabilities, both from escorting ships and patrol aircraft (LAMPS.)
> Submarines exist to keep the peace. Their real purpose is that they exist and operate in the dated service of mutually assured destruction.
Submarines are not only for launching nuclear ballistic missiles, as indicated by the relatively large number of submarines that are not designed to carry them. They're used for patrol, surveillance, special ops, escort, etc.
> Carriers don't go anywhere alone, and they never stop moving except when in port. They are part of a carrier strike group which includes extensive anti-missile capabilities, both from escorting ships and patrol aircraft (LAMPS.)
That sounds very nice but I think whatever is on the land side can store more missile than anti-missile missile on ships.
The reality is that the protection of the ship came from the desire to not have a full out war with the US. Once that is out of the picture, and given the adversary is not a punching bag like Iraq, all of them have the potential to rapidly sink on a massive attack. Though if it comes to that, the survivability of the fleet isn't the very first concern...
I think the bigger problem is that the economic incentives are totally out of step with war readiness or even just wise stewardship of taxpayers' money.
To the Navy’s credit it does appear they’re chopping some heads over it (even calling out the ships previous captain and some civilians) and perhaps this wake up call will help reorient the navy back towards where it needs to be. It’s certainly better than pinning this entire event on whatever E-3 started the fire.
Can’t say I’m super surprised it’s reached this point though, we’ve been running our military like schizophrenic kids on adderall for the last 20+ years.
Afghanistan, Iraq, countless foreign bases and deployments all around the world, civil crisis response (think weather disasters and the recent Trump unrest shenanigans) and oh also actual "homeland defense" responsibilities somewhere in the mix too. a nation not officially at war and yet... thousands of combat deaths, etc
“The U.S. Navy charged a sailor Thursday with starting a fire last year that destroyed the USS Bonhomme Richard docked off San Diego, marking the maritime branch's worst warship blaze outside of combat in recent memory.”
The whole arson story is not really believable to me.
I was once interrogated by NIS for 3 days and in the end I almost signed a false statement to get it over with.
NCIS is not a believable policing agency. They use very questionable methods for getting confessions.
In my case they provided a false statement from my roommate and then when I asked for representation they escorted me to a Flag Officer who told me I should tell them everything I know.
Turns out the flag officer was a prosecuting not defense lawyer. One agent was kind enough to mention that.
With that information I ran out of NIS headquarters never to hear from them again.
They are not to be trusted.
Now I work in a shipyard and my simple question is:
How did MARMAC allow a ship to not have fire stands in a shipyard.
Utter failure on thier part.
They are the US Navy contract representatives.
You were trying to be helpful so thank you, I do appreciate it and agree this Chicago story is quite horrific. I'm totally with you there.
But an example of a police department in one city run by one corrupt political party is not proof of the claim that any agency that does such a thing is a "believable policing agency"? Nor of the claim that this is "basically an universal trait of such agencies"?
I know there are policing agencies that behave poorly, the poster in this thread talking about NCIS gave another anecdote of it happening. That's not what I was questioning.
Persuasive interrogation like this is widely used across the United States to elicit confessions or convince people to accept plea bargains, even in cases where they are innocent, because our justice system does not actually have the capacity to provide everyone an actual trial. The risk of carrying a case to trial, even if you're innocent, can be significantly higher than entering a guilty plea and accepting a bargain.
As with the collisions in the western Pacific several years ago, I don't see anyone addressing the overwhelming workload and lack of resources provided to the US Navy. I read much about those collisions, not such much about this fire, so the following is based mostly on the former.
In absolute terms, they are very well funded of course. But what I read over and over is that there isn't time for training, because the demand we put on them - the world is a very large place - is much higher. They are told to cut training and deploy. After the collisions, they decided that officers (at least some positions) were too overworked and discussed (maybe implemented) limiting their workweeks to 100 hours.
Think of any organization; when the choice is product or training, many managers will cut the latter, even at the obvious long-term cost. The pressure and immediate demand are too great. If someone is working over 100 hours per week, if they can get a break by cutting training, that actually seems like a valid choice - they need to function.
Fundamentally, the US military is optimized for quality over quantity.
Look at the US Navy: ~400,000 active duty personnel operating ~400 ships (~250 combat, ~150 aux).
Compare to the Chinese PLAN: ~250,000 active duty personnel operating ~750 ships (~500 combat, ~250 aux).
A huge portion of that difference is due to aircraft carriers (11 USN, 2 PLAN), average tonnage per ship, and specifically the USN's lack of frigates.
This arrangement optimizes for the USN's mission of international power projection, where logistics requirements are like an iceberg, with the deployed forces being the above water volume.
However, it does leave a problem of training and experience. If no numerous smaller vessels exist for SWOs and crew to come up through, how do we expect them to have a deep reservoir of experience by the time they're commanding and crewing a destroyer+?
The retirement of the Perry class, subsequent botching of the LCS program (and finally recent selection of a Constellation class design, to be built) left the current USN with ~50 less commands for officers and crew to cut their teeth on.
And the personnel issue goes deeper than that. Recruitment is seeing some negative trends. You need a lot of people to man the ships. There aren't a ton of people interested in that. Reducing crew numbers was a major consideration in the newer ship designs.
But there is also automation that helps with a lot of tasks that are no longer required to be done manually. I don't have any expertise in ships, but I can give the example of airline aircrafts: 50 years ago you had 4 people in the cockpit (pilot, copilot, navigator, mechanic), then 3 and now just 2 (pilot + copilot) and some companies are toying with the idea (that I don't like at all) to reduce to a single person. From 4 to 2 or from 4 to 1 is possible due to automation. I think it is similar with ships.
One responder replied with one possible reason, I will give another based off my time on a rather new LHD. The Navy, to cut cost on construction, uses a lot of hand-me downs. I believe if I remember correctly, some of our engineering gear was repurposed from the USS Kitty Hawk. I dealt specifically with aviation fuels, while carriers often have limitorque values (think automated if unfamiliar), the ship I was on had none, all valves in the Av fuels system was manually operated. Keep in mind, I think construction completed in 2009 (so limitorques were definitely around).
> the overwhelming workload and lack of resources provided to the US Navy
If you think it's bad now, wait until there's a war.
The military needs to be able to operate under conditions of overwhelming workload and lack of resources, because that's what it will be like if it ever actually has to fight.
> If someone is working over 100 hours per week, if they can get a break by cutting training
Then someone has the wrong definition of "training". Training is properly done as part of actual operations. You don't "train" to do something and then do it. You train by doing it, while others more senior to you are watching you while they're doing their part of the operations. For example, the officers who made the bad decisions that caused the collisions you refer to should have been training on ship handling and navigation as part of transiting the ship from place to place, routinely. You shouldn't have to set aside special "training" time for those things.
Firefighting is actually an exception to the above rule, for obvious reasons, so there is a good reason to have special training time for that. But you can do that while other things are going on as well.
> when the choice is product or training, many managers will cut the latter
Your use of the word "managers" suggests to me the root cause of the problem: our military doesn't need "managers", it needs leaders. You don't "manage" a military organization; you lead it. And the collisions several years ago and this fire point to a lack of leadership in our military.
> our military doesn't need "managers", it needs leaders.
Funny, that's exactly what I said 40-plus years ago when I got out. (Naïve youth that I was, I even wrote a letter to Admiral Rickover about it; IIRC, the response was a bland thank-you letter from some functionary — but Rickover was famous for having said about certain managers, there but for the grace of God goes God.)
> that's exactly what I said 40-plus years ago when I got out.
I saw many of the same problems when I was in the Navy 30-ish years ago. But some seem to have gotten worse; from the report to Congress that was linked to upthread, what jumped out at me was the increasing micromanagement from flag officers and the lack of teaching basic ship handling and warfighting skills.
> Then someone has the wrong definition of "training". Training is properly done as part of actual operations. You don't "train" to do something and then do it. You train by doing it, while others more senior to you are watching you while they're doing their part of the operations.
I have a hard time understanding that. We all know that enormous amounts (maybe most) training is done outside actual operations, both in the military and otherwise. Obviously you are aware of that, so do you mean this in a specific context? Is the US Navy somehow different (and are you in the USN)?
The military is starting to succumb to the same ills of the modern corporate management culture. Everyone is managing up. Leave port on time because that is what I am measured on. I'm also assumed to be making sure my ship can leave on time, because it is ready, since I have been managing my ship correctly. Which I have not been, because no one is watching that.
Similar complaints are as old as time. I'm sure we can find Ancient Greek hoplites saying the same. How do we distinguish it from the inevitable challenges of managing large institutions?
In WW2 sailors fought horrific battles with fire and damage while under fire and trying to keep from dying. Yet today it appears no one gives a shit about training. We dump massive money into building new ships (with tech that often is pathetically bad, see the new aircraft carrier). Maybe our military has been reduced to a money sink for big defense contractors, but that doesn't absolve them from basic training and disciplined planning for disaster which really costs very little to do right.
The article assumes you already know the basic story. Here's a more comprehensive article.[1]
This ship was not at sea. It was docked, and partially disassembled for maintenance. Only 118 of the normal crew of 1000 were on board. On the other hand, they had assistance from the shipyard, other ships nearby, and civilian fire departments. Despite that, the ship burned for days and had to be scrapped.
I've done a lot of FOIA litigation. (b)(6) must refer to a paragraph of the federal FOIA statute - an exemption that prohibits the release of that portion of the image.
Here:
Exemption 6 protects information about individuals in "personnel and medical files and similar files" when the disclosure of such information "would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.
https://www.justice.gov/archive/oip/foia_guide09/exemption6....
1) No one died, mostly because civilian fire departments refused to board it in case they got lost.
There's some interesting parallels with the HMS Stark, which burned after being hit by an Exocet missile in the Falklands War. Their electronic communications and radar systems weren't working properly, they couldn't fight the fire, and the captain was recently assigned from subs. So it was more of an overal systemic failure like the BR than specific to a missile attack - the Exocet was an ignition source, but the failures afterward were leadership-related.
You can watch YT videos on the Forrestall carrier fire, started by electrical faults in Zuni missiles on John McCain's airplane. The Navy supposedly raised fire-fighting skills as a priority after that, but I guess not.
During WW2, the Franklin carrier burned and when around 100 sailors got blocked off by smoke and flames, they jumped overboard to save their lives. Sadly the captain blacklisted them, and they were interned as deserters in Hawaii.
2) No lives, but multiple billions of dollars, lost.
3) There's a scenario that China could occupy Australia with 10,000 soldiers using their existing troop carriers. The US actually needed the ship that burned.
NTD Media - How China Might Win a War with the US (Dr. Robert D. Eldridge) @4:41
4) My understanding is the fire involved a love triangle. If so, wokeism set back the US military, as expected. I've also heard recently that in time of war, many female personnel are expected to "accidently" get pregnant before deployment, affecting readiness. I bring this up because our current military leadership seemingly can't.
Source: I study WW2, and to a lesser extent, other wars.
I tend to think the military needs to be split in two. One half to deal with boots on grounds kinetic action and a second to deal with the permanent economic and cyber war. Of course integration of women would be far easier the the latter.
At the end of the day the responsibility rest on the Captain. It is their job to see that those under them are well trained, retrained, and reenforced in that training as a daily operational objective. Every good CO I have ever met when taking over a new station will review in detail the training and readiness status of their command as job 1, and not just review on paper but execute all the drills and observe the results. This is fundamental and is taught in detail in command school. Their should be a full set of court-martial for this failure at the command level.
And a juicy (and damning) tidbit from the parent's second link - the San Diego (local civilian) Fire Dept, arriving at the ship's pier 30 minutes after FedFire, and at least 45 minutes after the ship's crew knew of the fire, and knowing nothing of the ship's layout or systems, and having to (in effect) ask passing sailors for directions - was the first organization to actually get a hose to the fire, and start doing something useful - before the fire grew out of control.
jwithington's comment about the whole fire response (presumably outside of the municipal crews) being a "clownshow" is profoundly understated.
Whatever is going on with the Navy, it doesn't seem to be well understood by flag officers. There have been far too many reports of crew exhaustion and confusion, too many reports of faulty or ill-designed user interfaces, and too little exhibition of loyalty downward from flag ranks toward the people who act to keep the ship afloat and moving.
Is crew retention decreasing? It is hard to imagine people putting up with conditions in the Navy while there are so many stories like this going around.
Disagree here. The leadership problem is because the navy has introduced a crazy promotion scheme where a sailor gets promoted based on how well they look on paper and not how they actually do their job. I got out 4 years ago and it was sad to see, sailors hitting higher tenure because they couldn't promote. They couldnt promote because they put a priority on making sure their division got it's job done, but were punished with P or MP evals. Meanwhile the dipshit who doesn't know the first thing about their rate, and escaped learning about their rate by collecting pins, got EPs and promoted. Then a few years later, they put on anchors and are expected to lead a division of junior sailors to perform a job, but don't know the first thing about performing the job other than what was needed out of a book to score high enough on exams. Big reason why I got out.
And all of that Navy is just to intimidate some illiterate Middle Eastern mujahedeen and a few Somalian pirates. This is completely ineffective against anyone with a submarine fleet, which is why you see this particular distribution of submarine fleet sizes: https://www.globalfirepower.com/navy-submarines.php, and which is why, say, Russia doesn't even bother with building aircraft carriers anymore.
Another example of the institutional rot that is happening across our county in aging institutions that have little accountability. Will any leadership be held accountable? No. The US Military is a jobs program first and a fighting force a distant second.
There have been major changes in the shipyard since the fire. Navy leadership, RMCs, and ship's force have been more involved at every level. The question to follow now is when will they return to complacency.
The density of these incidents seems to be increasing, ships run by untrained crew crashing into other vehicles, steered by software that does not work.
Now the leadership that created the circumstances and conditions for this mismanagement to flourish, rushes to fix a problem they allowed to create?
There's a major difference between repair/maintenance fires and the incidences afloat. Shipyard fires are being held to the highest standards ever since Oscar Austin, the submarine, and now LHD.
The leadership is more concerned with diversity and inclusion than combat readiness. This institutional rot, across industry, academia, and military, is a symptom of antimeritocratic hiring bias. For example, apparently women are so valuable to our military that the brass has decided to quietly lower standards in return for positive political coverage. This has been going on to an increasing degree for at least a decade, and is only accelerating under the current administration and, frankly, it's insanity.
Indeed this phenomenon is not exclusive to the military and has permeated into a lot of other industries. I see evidence of it in the software industry too. Quality is declining noticeably, but the elephant in the room few would speak up about, so they start pointing fingers elsewhere instead. Yet what else could you expect if you started hiring people based on who they are instead of what they can do?
Does a questionable source of data disqualify the data even if it is verifiable just because one does not like it? I had the same dilemma for myself, I have no good answer yet.
No. It's an awfully convenient substitute for an argument, but ultimately just an abused heuristic. There's nothing precluding a "bad" person from conducting good research or giving good advice.
If you don't have time to verify/consider something then sure, probably don't get your advice from hitler. But in an argument its a cheap and disingenuous dismissal which doesn't actually bring you any closer to truth/resolution.
In this case it's a compendium of interviews from current personnel. Maybe the implication is that the data is fabricated but the only evidence provided is in the form of "the author has opinions I don't like".
Was there anything in the report that you wanted to actually contest, or are you going to rely on character assassination as a substitute for an actual argument?
Awfully convenient to automatically class anyone with an opinion contrary to your own as "unreliable". An excellent manufactured reason to avoid content produced by anyone from outside of your bubble.
Well, for one, there was a letter signed by 1xx retired leaders but I'm having trouble finding it on google under the pile of pro D&I propaganda that exclusively makes up search results.
For two, consistent anecdata from personal acquaintances and forum posts. The demographics are also completely changing. The military was until recently carried primarily by white men from small town America. Now white maleness is effectively a career handicap when genitals, skin color, and sexual orientation are considered for promotion.
I think the recent army advertisements are a valid proxy for the negative value that current leadership places on white-maleness. A military which is still majority white and male is releasing recruitment videos which exclusively feature minorities, females, and a healthy sprinkling of homosexuality. Here's a nice illustration, comparing recent US ads to those from Russia and China[0]. Only two of those forces are actually interested in recruiting competent soldiers, if these ads are any indication. China is laughing.
Edit: the sister post by jimmygrapes found one of the reports/letters I was looking for. I urge you all to read it to see, among other things, what happens to morale when demographic considerations are added to promotion evaluations. What is reported is consistent with what I've been hearing from former servicemember acquaintances.
> The military was until recently carried primarily by white men from small town America
The military has disproportionately been non-White for a long time (largely, because even while actively racist for most of its history, it was less racist than the rest of American society), despite the White segment of it being disproportionately small town.
Its been disproportionately male, because it has been actively sexist and, unlike its racism, more actively sexist than the rest of society.
> Now white maleness is effectively a career handicap when genitals, skin color, and sexual orientation are considered for promotion.
Genitals, skin color, sexual orientation, and conformity with social norms of alignment of sex assigned at birth with gender presentation have always been a factor in military assignment, promotion, and discipline in the US.
For most of the history of the US military being White was a commanding advantage in that, being male was a commanding advantage in some areas, and a bright-line legal requirement everywhere else, and until very recently not being a cisgender heterosexual was grounds for being excluded from the service and drummed out (and criminally prosecuted) if already in.
The idea that these factors only started to matter when they stopped being a trump card for White cishet men is...amusing.
It's never been the case, but those sorts of made up talking points are the only things these types complaining seem to have to attempt to justify their frustrations at society, or something.
There seems to be a lot of cognitive dissonance or just ignorance about the fact the U.S. has singular counties, essentially close to singular cities, that have the same population of 13 states combined.
And, statistically, those in the lower population 13 states are more and more unable to meet the simple physical requirements of the U.S. military. To my knowledge, the past 5 or so years, the military has had serious recruitment issues because of things as simple as obesity metrics.
Never been the case? The US was about 90% white until the 90s. As of 2017 it was still the case[0]. I think the cognitive dissonance is more on the side of so called "anti-racists" who are cheering on the implementation of explicit institutional racism ostensibly to correct for perceived institutional racism. You can't literally fight fire with fire.
Try the 1960, according to the US Census. After 1960, it's been a steady change to today where people who identify as White comprise a bit over 61%, a figure that seems to make strong, heterosexual white men clutch their pearls.
You're suggesting that concerns over codified institutional discrimination (through affirmative action and reverse racism quotas) are "pearl clutching". And singling out straight white men.
Are white men not allowed to expect meritocratic, equal treatment in a society where they are a minority-majority?
So one, admit your facts were wrong, and then you can start to debate intelligently. Secondly, society is inherently unequal. Congress has attempted to redress some of this equality through affirmative action. And third, you're saying the quiet part out loud when you yet again show concern about being a minority-majority. Are you afraid of being treated the same way non-whites have been treated for the last 100 years, or do you think they've been treated just fine?
My facts are not wrong. The demographics of the United States did not begin to appreciably change until Reagan* signed his immigration reform bill in 1965 or so.
>Secondly, society is inherently unequal. Congress has attempted to redress some of this equality through affirmative action
Yes, the debate is whether or not this inequality is actually due to racism, and whether codified racism is somehow an appropriate vehicle for correction. Sidestepping this necessary discussion with accusations of white supremacy is not an argument.
>And third, you're saying the quiet part out loud when you yet again show concern about being a minority-majority
I'm not saying anything quiet out loud. I've been loud and clear that I am worried about the fact that whites, today, are already a majority-minority in multiple institutions, rapidly approaching such status in the military and the nation in general, and most importantly, are already being treated unfairly in a misguided attempt to correct perceived racism with actual racism, and being slandered with dehumanizing comparisons to nazis for even attempting to question whether such discriminatory policies are justifiable.
>Are you afraid of being treated the same way non-whites have been treated for the last 100 years, or do you think they've been treated just fine?
First, I really don't appreciate the bigoted implication that only a white male could possibly be concerned with mistreatment of whites. I am a Jewish immigrant. Second, yes, I am indeed concerned that the only socially acceptable view appears to be that today's white people deserve to be mistreated because some white people mistreated others in the past.
I am arguing against literal systemic racism and yet my posts are being flagged. This is the most toxic sort of groupthink and, now that we have successfully convinced 1-2 generations that the only contributions that white people have made to civilization are racism and colonialism, yes, you're god damn right I'm worried that the foundations have been laid for mistreatment of whites, who are a tiny minority with respect to global demographics. Your argumentation is generally dishonest and you appear to be supporting bigotry in the form of some petty revenge fantasy.
Equality of opportunity != Equality of outcome. If you think the meritocratic system is broken, fix the process, don't penalize whites for the perceived sins of some of their ancestors.
*It is was signed by Lyndon B Johnson, as the daughter post points out.
FYI, the immigration bill was signed by Lyndon Johnson. Ronald Reagan was not President.
It was advertised as just being a small reform and not as something profound. Here is Ted Kennedy:
""The bill will not flood our cities with immigrants,” lead supporter Sen. Edward “Ted” Kennedy (D-Mass.) told the Senate during debate. “It will not upset the ethnic mix of our society. It will not relax the standards of admission. It will not cause American workers to lose their jobs.”
I don't think that follows. You're tacitly assuming that the demographics of the military will reflect the demographics of the society as a whole, whereas I think its more reasonable to assume that the demographics of the military will reflect the demographics of the poor for whom it represents a viable alternative.
Good friend of mine is a white male O-4 BN in the Navy, previously a marine, from a family of predominantly white men in the Navy/military in general, with female family members also in the military.
He first started talking to me about this "perceived issue" you speak of back in the beginning of 2019.
Has repeatedly stated is the most hilariously stupid white nationalist and incel-esque shit he's ever had to hear about or deal with
Along with the fact that everybody he's observed as a marine and a Navy BN spouting off about it is typically an obnoxious douche who everybody hates and is generally incompetent at some of the easiest jobs our government provides citizens.
So, after reading what you've posted, the theme of it seems to line up with his, his families, and all of his higher ranking friends observations - just another person butthurt about females and people who aren't white, likely because you feel you've somehow been wronged by them in life or have other issues you need therapy for.
But go on about this being the issue, and not many of the clearly observered, defined, and reported on issues that the Navy/US Military in general is facing. Hint: one of them is white nationalists, and the poor quality of service/general incompetence and questions about loyalty that typically come with them.
Losers is something I can recall him repeatedly referring to them as, but I'm not sure how appropriate that is for HN.
And, since we're in the thread about the Bonhomme - I'll mention he has some very nice footage of the fire from Coronado bridge.
It's pretty gross that in light of clear evidence of widespread discrimination you dismiss legitimate complaints with generic and shallow accusations of inceldom, white nationalism, and incompetence. Reverse racism is still racism.
Step back for a moment and consider what psychological effect such explicitly discriminatory policy may have on any demographic on the receiving end. Explicitly assigning disadvantages according to immutable characteristics fuels so called "white nationalism", as do blithe dismissals such as yours. You can't have it both ways - either you attempt to hire by merit or you acknowledge that you are motivating self-preserving movements in demographics which perceive discrimination.
There's also a certain selection bias among those willing to complain. Generally those with good career prospects are far more likely to keep their heads down rather than risk repercussions for speaking against top down D&I pressure - so the fact that the loudest may not be stellar examples of good soldiering does not imply that this perceived discrimination is not more widespread among otherwise competent personell.
I like how in the Chinese ad they don't even hide the fact that you might have to run along side the tanks while shells rain down on you. You would have to be mad to watch that video and think, yes that's the life for me!
What do you think a diversity quota is, if not discrimination? Maybe you're suggesting that it's time for the supreme court to step in, given that these hiring and promotion practices are, as your link clearly states, illegal?
This is pretty cut and dry. You may be supportive of D&I but by definition it is an exclusionary, discriminatory, a-meritocratic, and illegal policy. The fact that these quotas tend to be implicit does not change the legality (or morality) of the widespread practices.
Do you think having different opinions, experiences, and backgrounds is something that should be left out of decision making?
Can you see any value in making sure the army is diverse to make sure it still can recruit, integrate, and retain people from all over the US and not just people from one specific background?
This is honestly a very grey area and could be taken too far, but there seems to be clear benefits to having armed forces that everyone feels represents them. And that's worth at least some impact on effectiveness, right?
It's the not Armed Forces to make sure it's diverse in the terms you're talking about. The first thing they do in boot camp is breakdown the individual and create a team player. It doesn't matter what color you are, where you are from, you are all on the same team. Your life literally depends on the person next you. If you remove the colorblind meritocracy that military should be you are putting everyone's lives in danger. Diversity in the antithesis of what a sound fighting force is looking for.
The African-Americans I've talked to and whom I've read often say the opposite, and I haven't heard any agree. What I hear is, 'it doesn't matter who you are or what you've done, you are always just Black in the eyes of the police (and society)', and that there is often no way for an observer to distinguish rich from poor (as if that should matter anyway).
For example, African-Americans driving expensive cars are pulled over and suspected of being drug dealers. I've read many stories of African-Americans being pulled over for nothing - an experience I've never had.
No doubt that still happens but I don’t know how common that is? There is a lot of race-baiting going on in the press which may give a skewed perspective of reality. For example, research shows that white police officers aren’t more likely to shoot a black suspect than police officers from another race. [1] But that’s not what the media tells us. The constant focus on race also makes people paranoid. “Was that guy just a dick or was he racist?”
But that is not the point. A black man that went to Harvard and is now working for Goldman Sachs has more in common with a white Goldman Sachs employee than with a black factory worker. They read the same kind of books and newspapers, drive the same kind of car, live in the same kind of neighborhood, …
>>research shows that white police officers aren’t more likely to shoot a black suspect than police officers from another race. [1] But that’s not what the media tells us.
I've never heard anything about this. The point isn't the color of the person holding the gun, and its weird that you think it is.
I don't think that's important. The media does. Only when a white police officer mistreats or shoots a black person is the media eager to report it, emphasizing the race of everyone involved. When the opposite happens coverage isn't nearly as big or even non-existent. The implicit message is that white cops are racist.
Any reference to "the media" seems undefined. Journalists in just the US come from tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of organizations, of all sorts of size, quality, focus, partisanship (amount and direction), etc. etc. There is a cacophony of voices.
> No doubt that still happens but I don’t know how common that is?
It's very well covered, researched, and discussed; ignorance doesn't relieve the problem or dismiss it.
> There is a lot of race-baiting going on in the press which may give a skewed perspective of reality.
That's your claim, a trendy one in some circles to blame 'the media', but it's not really substantiated, even by one study. African-Americans - the people with direct experience of it - have been telling the world about it for generations. Racism is getting worse as many people openly embrace it, including rapidly increasing hate crimes, overt statements by national leaders and other 'influencers', and far more. And every time, throughout history, the problem of racism is met with the same response - an effort to shut down the complaints.
> A black man that went to Harvard and is now working for Goldman Sachs has more in common with a white Goldman Sachs employee than with a black factory worker.
Probably not when they're pulled over, but ignoring the difficulty getting to that point is a bit silly.
"Inside Goldman Sachs Group Inc., 1,548 U.S. executives, senior officials and managers run the bank. Of that group, 24 are Black men and 25 are Black women."
Ironic that you claim this when a Harvard professor was treated much more like a common criminal than a member of an elite institution. Perhaps it's not the color of skin in your example that matters, but the financial and social class.
You don't seem to grasp what I'm saying. This professor is part of the elite. He has elite friends, elite interests, elite ideas about society. It's not because he experienced racism that he suddenly has the same worldview as a black factory worker.
The idea that someone with a different skin color automatically has different views, which I believe is the whole implicit idea behind diversity being positive for society, is just plain wrong.
The point is that even working at the pinnacle of American education, a black man, no matter how many degrees, how many letters, how much money in the bank, is treated the same as a black janitor. Assumed guilty by the police, treated like dirt.
I love when elites talk like "Yeah, I'll speak with your mama outside".
It's entirely plausible that a white person who was accused of breaking into their own home would not be arrested for disorderly conduct afterwards, because they wouldn't view the event as being part of a larger narrative against their race. All of that could happen without anyone actually doing anything wrong.
> The average net worth of Black families is $142,330 — or just one-seventh of the $980,550 in wealth accumulated by white Americans, according to a new study from LendingTree that draws on data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the 2020 Economic Policy Institute report, and various Federal Reserve reports.
> The median net worth of both shows similar disparities. The median wealth for Black families is $24,100, or about one-eighth of that for white families at $189,100, according to the study.
There are only 2 stable fixpoints: meritocracy and sectarianism, with meritocracy being merely metastable. Trouble is, sectarian armed force don't win wars. At worst they engage in civil war. Your logic is unassailable, sadly few people bother to acquiesce the consequences.
It's a remedy for existing discrimination. For example, if for a job we have 100 candidates in group A and 100 in group B, and we only hire from group A, then requiring some hiring from group B likely increases the hiring based on merit and decreases discrimination.
The odd thing is a lack of concern for the decades and centuries of discrimination that continue today, and only focusing on criticizing remedies for it. When do we see posts on HN addressing the former?
>For example, if for a job we have 100 candidates in group A and 100 in group B, and we only hire from group A, then requiring some hiring from group B likely increases the hiring based on merit and decreases discrimination.
This is borderline disingenuous. In the vast majority of institutions accused of discrimination because of disproportionate representation, the underrepresented groups are already underrepresented among applicants. Especially in the military - what proportion of military applicants have historically (or contemporaneously) been female?
More importantly, your repeated justification for discrimination against white males is predicated upon the dangerous and ubiquitous conflation of equality of opportunity with equality of outcome. There is absolutely no reason to expect one to imply the other in a diverse, even perfectly meritocratic civilization. Culture heavily influences career/employment goals.
That's one of the major issues with the entire diversity movement. The bulk of evidentiary support for reverse racism comes from statistical underrepresentation, which is effectively impossible to conclusively blame on discrimination.
Equal representation is not a viable goal at least because, ignoring other reasons, not all demographics are equally interested in all jobs.
Again, we keep looking for alternative explanations, like an obsession, like climate change denial. What are we avoiding? There's plenty of evidence, all over, of racial and gender discrimination.
Then pick the best of this overwhelming evidence and present that alone.
The logic in your comment implied the discrepancy was enough to assume discrimination w/o any reference to evidence.
> why are people looking for every theoretical possibility
Are you talking about my comment? Your own comment ("if for a job we have 100 candidates in group A and 100 in group B...") is a theoretical, so that's why I countered with one. Present evidence of prejudice specific to the topic at hand and I can comment more tangibly one that.
It's like climate change denial or the theory of gravity: I'm not reestablishing the facts for the 10 billionth time. Racism has been extremely well researched, documented, and discussed for generations.
What, exactly? "Racism" and it's very existence, or specifically it's effect on the topic at hand
?
You haven't really established what it is you are arguing, let alone any of the facts/research specific you allude to, specific to that argument.
And no, soft science subjects like this are not like hard-science topics like global climate or gravity. It feels like you only include this to paint me as some kind of "Racism denier" or something. I don't deny racism exists, I just don't accept that as an argument that means it must be the cause of every unequal outcome.
As a former enlisted member myself, I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, any attempt to bring attention to this in masturbatory echo chambers such as this will not be met well.
The fire response read like a clownshow, and this article doesn't even highlight the worst of it. There was a Sailor who saw the smoke and walked by it, thinking nothing of it!
Another officer thought the smoke might have been coming from the diesel generator. Why tf would the diesel generator be running???
It's hard for me to think of the software equivalent of these fundamental errors. Maybe something like finding a spike in network traffic and assuming it's load testing on prod, when you're actually getting pwned?
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